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Post by Joanne on Aug 21, 2014 14:57:07 GMT -5
I posted that to get attention, but also to make a point.
I dont think the DS is for everyone. There, I said it.
Last summer I had the opportunity to have dinner with two of the long time vets here, NYB and jpcello. It was really good to meet them, and to get their perspective on living with the DS long term. I'm 5 years out, and even though most of this is old hat to me, believe them when they say it changes, and changes, and changes. We talked about the good and the bad, and how things can crop up over time. It really gave me perspective that even though my DS life has become mostly routine and normal, that I have decades to go of living with it.
That's what's prompting me to write this post, about those things that can and do crop up over time. Because now, for the second time in 2014, I have a broken bone. Again. I broke my foot yesterday, doing something simple, yet clumsy, by falling out of my shoe. Six months ago I broke my wrist AND elbow falling on ice while going to my mailbox. And yes, I do take my calcium and Vitamin D, every day.
My point is during the honeymoon period, it's so easy to be in puppy love with your DS. The weight falls off. People ooh and aah at you. You can experience things you only dreamed of as a morbidly obese person. You feel like you found the key to the universe and want everyone else to have it, too. But kind of like my first marriage, years after the honeymoon is over, you're seeing wrinkles, the gray, and are picking up someone else's dirty underwear. Once the honeymoon is over, is the tradeoff really worth it for you?
For me, so far, yes - the tradeoff has been worth it. Broken bones, iron infusions, any and all of that. But I think people have to be aware of and be prepared for the tradeoff. Mine was trading diabetes, endometrial cancer, severe GERD and nightly aspiration choking fits for these brittle easy to break bones. When I was in my honeymoon period, I tended to be blindly in DS love. My DS could do no wrong. When I saw people have issues like these brittle bones, I would jump to the conclusion that it had to be their fault. They didn't supplement. Maybe they were just too cheap/lazy/noncompliant. I'm here to tell you that I relgiously supplement and monitor my labs. Sh*t just happens. Not everyone who has an issue is ignorant, cheap, lazy or otherwise flawed. Some people do everything right, and sh*t just happens. Be warned and be prepared.
I'm not trying to be doom and gloom. As I said, I would make the same decision 100 times over. My tradeoff has not been perfect, but it has been absolutely worth it. However, by the title of this post, the point I want to make is just because the tradeoff was right for me, it may not be right for the next person. For example, would I be happy with a VSG, maybe an extra 40-50 pounds, and no broken bones? Hmmm... maybe. If I were 40-50 pounds heavier I would still have met every goal I set out for when I had my DS. But my counter point to that is I really know I need the DS. I dont think it with another surgery it would be only 40 pounds.
The bottom line is my tradeoff, my surgery choice was my choice to make, and I own it. Just as everyone else needs to be informed, realistic, and have the right to own their own choice.A few years ago I felt like some kind of DS zealot, that I had to make the world a better place with DS's for all. My thinking has definitely changed. It was right for me, no doubt, but I also think that once the honeymoon is over, it becomes more clear about how those tradeoffs might not be the same choice another person would make. And that's ok.
(stepping off soap box, thanks)
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Post by Mariposa(Heather) on Aug 21, 2014 21:01:47 GMT -5
Interesting post, Joanne. I am hoping that I made the right choice for myself. I'm glad the trade off has been worth it for you. I am sorry about your foot though, I hope you heal quickly!
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Post by Leonie on Aug 22, 2014 1:38:15 GMT -5
I had to click like for the wisdom in this post, but I wish there was an un-like button for the problems you are having now. I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this.
As an aside, I know people who have brittle bones, and they are skinny and athletic and healthy. But I understand about trade-offs. Living with the DS take so much energy and effort. Yesterday I had iron infusions. Last week a dexa scan with a diagnosis of osteoporosis, and am still trying to find a Calcium citrate that works. Next week I am having a massive hernia repaired. The DS is swallowing a large chunk of my life. Yet the rewards are measured in fitting into kiddie chairs and having a dolls tea-party, letting a baby boy bounce on my lap (I did not have one before), wearing a bunch of pretty bracelets, and strappy sandals, and being enfolded in a hug.
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Post by goodkel on Aug 22, 2014 2:43:43 GMT -5
I agree that people without the discipline to take their vitamins, get their labs, and their protein in for the rest of their life should not get the DS.
People who will not follow their own labs should not get the DS.
People who can not advocate firmly for themselves or fire uncooperative medical professionals should not get the DS.
But, diseases and conditions happen to everyone. Parkinson's, MS, ALS, arthritis, cancer. People without the DS and in formerly perfect health get them, too. The DS doesn't cause them. Being compliant with your vitamins and protein won't prevent them.
When you are morbidly obese, your fat is already killing you. Your DS greatly reduces/eliminates the risk of death from high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, clogged arteries. And if, by chance, it doesn't buy you more time, at least it allows you to truly live in the time you have left.
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Post by jpcello on Aug 22, 2014 5:27:18 GMT -5
So sorry about another broken bone. That is my current fear as my bone density continues to get worse even as my calcium/PTH, etc. continue to stay in the "normal" range.
BTW, GREAT POST!!
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Post by Joanne on Aug 22, 2014 5:51:01 GMT -5
Yes - you guys are 100% correct in saying my bone issues can come from other things. I'm a 50 year old menopausal woman. It could be that. I suspect it's DS related.
You never know where your path will lead you in life If I didn't get my DS, I am confident I would be in worse shape. Heck, I WAS in much worse shape. I can only imagine the problems I might have now.
Two of my other (women of a certain age?) DS friends, who I think are also pretty compliant, are suffering with some bone issues. Again, obestiy? menopause? combination? Who knows. But I'll reiterate - for me - the return has been multiples. I could break bones every year and even if I was 100% sure it was from my DS, I would still do it again. And there was real irony in the orthopeadic doctor telling me yesterday that I was a small woman.
I think my point is that when we're in the honeymoon phase, it's so easy to think we found that key to the universe. We have to be prepared that longer out (and I'm only at 5 years), we may see some issues. For me, that's ok. It's still very much been the key to my universe, and then some.
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Post by illinids2 on Aug 22, 2014 6:50:57 GMT -5
Sorry about the bone issues and this break, Joanne
I shall have to see how I fare but so far so good ...yes the ds is life changing and consuming but so far as advertised.
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 7:52:49 GMT -5
Scott you are still very early out. Time will change things again and again. And then there's aging...
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Post by Joanne on Aug 22, 2014 8:17:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that's the point, Scott. You have every right to love your DS "as advertised"...and I love mine, still. The difference is when I was a year or so out, I felt like I had to fight the urge to stand on a street corner handing out cards to every overweight person I saw. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I was in blind love.
I'm still in love, but the love where you accept your partner flaws and all.
Over time things do change, and my point is that when I was only a few years out, I insisted that the DS was the answer for everyone. That ALL and ANY issues were either exaggerated or somehow caused by something the patient did or didn't do. I dont feel that way any more, but still love and accept my DS. I hope that makes sense.
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 9:02:56 GMT -5
Boy oh boy does that make sense.
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 9:18:00 GMT -5
I'm 14.5 years out.
At some point, the DS itself becomes ancient history. Your eating and pooping and vitamins are not foremost on your mind - you just get used to it and it's not a big deal anymore. You get used to not being fat. But I think that at that point, some years down the road, things get complicated on some level because the longterm effects of deficiencies and malabsorption show themselves. This is why it is so very critical to not be cavalier about things - although in 14.5 years I have seen VERY few people start out with an attitude that will help them later. Almost everyone gets caught by surprise when something happens. It's human nature.
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to remain vigilant about protein and supplements and good medical care FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. The DS is NOT FOR EVERYONE, not at all. I am not a DS cheerleader - I think there are lots of people who do not and would not do well with a DS.
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 9:21:12 GMT -5
I see a lot of "la la la I eat whatever I want la la la " but that will not last…and then it is MUCH harder to adjust things, create new habits, not feel pissed off because you thought you got a free ride and then it's not true anymore.
Eating tons of food and whatever you want is not something to be proud of. Being healthy is something to be proud of, because it takes so much work. Being healthy long term with a DS takes A LOT OF WORK, and money, and good health insurance. And a lot of assertiveness and intelligence and discipline.
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Post by jpcello on Aug 22, 2014 9:39:59 GMT -5
Yes - you guys are 100% correct in saying my bone issues can come from other things. I'm a 50 year old menopausal woman. It could be that. I suspect it's DS related. You never know where your path will lead you in life If I didn't get my DS, I am confident I would be in worse shape. Heck, I WAS in much worse shape. I can only imagine the problems I might have now. Two of my other (women of a certain age?) DS friends, who I think are also pretty compliant, are suffering with some bone issues. Again, obestiy? menopause? combination? Who knows. But I'll reiterate - for me - the return has been multiples. I could break bones every year and even if I was 100% sure it was from my DS, I would still do it again. And there was real irony in the orthopeadic doctor telling me yesterday that I was a small woman. I think my point is that when we're in the honeymoon phase, it's so easy to think we found that key to the universe. We have to be prepared that longer out (and I'm only at 5 years), we may see some issues. For me, that's ok. It's still very much been the key to my universe, and then some. I have been struggling with this as well (being a 57 year old post-menopausal woman). Is that the cause of my osteoporosis or the DS or a combination? I'll never know that answer but it has to be addressed. I also agree that I would still do it again because the health issues I had before surgery IMHO were far worse than the health issues I have now. Now ask me that question in 10 years and I may have a different answer. That's just life. Thanks for starting this conversation.
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mistercy
Full Member
Posts: 228
Surgery Type: DS
Surgery Date: 03/26/2013
Surgeon: Mitchell Roslin
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Post by mistercy on Aug 22, 2014 10:22:11 GMT -5
Joanne,
Thank you for a great topic! As the organizer of that dinner last summer, I also loved getting the perspectives of all of you as veterans, and even gained wisdom from some of the newbies. I learned SO much! We'll have to do another one this fall!
I would agree - this DS is not for everyone. It has it's complications, and even when you do everything right, things can go wrong. I am now 17 months out, so pretty much at the end of my weight loss, and still honeymooning. I've lost 215 pounds, and pretty happy with that. Yesterday, I was at the Lenox Hill WLS support group. I saw mostly VSG patients, who all had consistently lost between 50-100 pounds. I thought to myself whether I would be happy at 250-300 pounds, with only a sleeve, but without the malabsorption issues the DS provides. In the end, no regrets. I also counseled a DS patient who has been getting her nutritional info from the NUT, and has been only eating lowfat yogurts and skim milk. Aargh! The amount that the so-called professionals don't know about this surgery is amazing, and I've been learning the ropes from the various support groups such as this one.
I had been researching this surgery for 12 years before taking the plunge. I've seen DSers who did well, and others who did not. A fellow teacher who had the DS lost 225 in one year, but also sheared her femur that year because she thought she was ok taking just a multivitamin. Seeing that has helped keep me compliant. Despite complications, 4 surgeries so far, exhaustion issues, and more fun to come, this was the right decision for me. But it is not for everyone. M brother is 325 pounds and severely diabetic. After seeing my complications, he is scared off of the DS for now. I'm glad, because I think he may have a problem being compliant with vitamins. You have to be committed to do this surgery (or probably should "be committed", if you get my drift, but that's a different topic altogether!). That means accepting the negative accepts of the new dietary tool along with the benefits. These were tradeoffs I was willing to make, which also makes me more accepting of the changes yet to come.
Thanks for starting a great discussion! Sending healing vibes out for both you and your son!
Corbin
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citizenk9
Junior Member
Posts: 99
Surgery Type: DS
Surgery Date: 10/13/2009
Surgeon: Dr, John Rabkin, San Francisco, CA
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Post by citizenk9 on Aug 22, 2014 10:50:16 GMT -5
Oh Joanne!!! I totally get what you are writing about! You expressed my own feelings very well. Things do change and change again over time. Every time I get something new that concerns me I realize how serious of a surgery this really is. I thought I knew that when I had surgery but I was also wearing my rose colored glasses and so excited about being thin. We were both on OH when there was tons of posts and information. I researched the hell out of the DS. I realize how deadly my obesity was and the diseases and conditions I had at the time. I now also realize the deadly or serious consequences that can arise post surgery as well.
I am a natural worrier and I tend to see the worst possibilities. My hemoglobin is down for the 6th month in a row now (after infusions) and my hematologist wants me to have a bone marrow test, I could vomit. Whether or not this is DS related (I believe it is), any and all diseases/conditions/disorders scare me. When I'm knee deep in fear I curse the DS and my choice to have it. I curse the fact that I was obese and all the excuses and reasons that I got that way in the first place. I can't think straight. I know that anything happening to my fellow DSers could be me someday, I get a huge lump in my throat. I never say never and I believe it can happen to even the most diligent DSer. It is easier to forget the pain of obesity when you are facing the fear of breaking every bone in your body, right?! I just try to constantly remind myself that I can and would have a reversal if it became necessary. It's my saving grace.
I am very selective now on who I recommend the DS to. I think you do have to have some intelligence, some money, and at times need to be very assertive. My neighbor is lacking on all of these so when she told me she wanted to have WLS, I kept my mouth shut. I saw the glaze in her eyes as she had dreamy visions of a possible size 4 body. There was nothing I could have said that would have helped. I try not to judge people because I'm not perfect. You can be very compliant and still have issues. It's a matter of adjusting your life to fit the current situation and weighing the odds of your choices. Getting older is scary and at 46 I'm in new territory of menopause. Eating some carbs and sugar are the least of my worries and cutting them out completely is not going to get my hemoglobin up. I pick and choose my battles.
I saved some of my old posts and I have to laugh when I read them now. I had one that said how I had no cravings for anything sweet. I really believed at the time that I would never have them again. HYSTERICAL! I hope you can get some help with those bones of yours. I had my bone density checked just before surgery and again about a year ago and it was definitely different. If the pace keeps up I will be wearing casts someday myself. I take a ton of calcium, strontium, Vit D, Mag citrate, K2. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and being so honest. I'm right there with you!
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DSwitcher
Junior Member
Posts: 88
Surgery Type: Revision
Surgery Date: 08/26/2014
Surgeon: BOYCE
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Post by DSwitcher on Aug 22, 2014 10:56:09 GMT -5
I see a lot of "la la la I eat whatever I want la la la " but that will not last… I was surprised to learn that some of the Bacon Butter Braggers either had not reached their desired weight or had some regain. I am still not clear about the Fat issue, when you should watch it and when you can start eating full fat,i f ever, but it is not the "I eat it all" mentality that I at first thought it was... {:>}
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Post by goodkel on Aug 22, 2014 11:02:48 GMT -5
I see a lot of "la la la I eat whatever I want la la la " but that will not last… I was surprised to learn that some of the Bacon Butter Braggers either had not reached their desired weight or had some regain. I am still not clear about the Fat issue, when you should watch it and when you can start eating full fat,i f ever, but it is not the "I eat it all" mentality that I at first thought it was... {:>} When it comes to DS weight regain, fat is never the problem. It is always the carbs.
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PeteA
Full Member
Posts: 221
Surgery Date: 4/15/13
Surgeon: Dr. Phillip Schauer
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Post by PeteA on Aug 22, 2014 11:12:01 GMT -5
Interesting and important topic. I'm with you on the whole "DS is not for everyone". Time does give some people perspective on which people might do better than others.
I'm really not sure that the honeymoon/puppy love is a good analogy but certainly fits the actions of some people, although for some it lasts longer than anyone expects. It might be just semantics bit I think people get really caught up in validating their own decision. Early post-op when you are the most vulnerable that is very understandable but eventually you have to let your viewpoint get a little more broad.
NYB - just as a side note. I really don't see a lot of those people on the "I eat whatever I want" bandwagon. Sure there a few vocal individuals who have adopted that as an attitude that works for them but they are easily seen as a small minority, at least on the sites I'm on.
DSwitcher fat is such an individual issue but I think bacon just gets a lot of press because it is a fun topic. I don't go out of my for fat but I have to say I only eat low fat now when I buy something by mistake.
Have a good day everybody,
Pete
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Post by Joanne on Aug 22, 2014 13:27:42 GMT -5
I try hard not to judge people by their WLS results. It's obvious some people do better than others. But I try to not forget where I came from. Obesity is complex, and my surgeon believes people become obese for many different reasons. Some bodies metabolize differently. Some pepole are driven to hunger from physical or mental reasons. Some people are insulin resistant. Some people have cultural norms different than others. Who knows? But if we become obese for different reasons that it stands to reason we may get different results.
And if someone is eating too much of the wrong things and is still 50 pounds overweight, who am I to judge them? I was 150 pounds overweight. Maybe that person has lost 200 or more pounds.
The thing that is true though, is that it would be very rare for someone to eat whatever the heck they wanted, and maintain a low weight. It gets hard. I also went back and looked at old posts of mine and saw even at 3-4 years out I was posting about eating whatever I wanted and staying in my range. That party is over.
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Post by illinids2 on Aug 22, 2014 13:43:22 GMT -5
I have no doubt that our bodies adapt over time and malabsorbtion becomes less, so I know adjustments will need to be made over time. That is life..very few things remain static. I will continue to take my supplements as lab results direct and to focus on protein first. After that I will eat what my body tells me works. What works today may not work in five years, and when that time comes I will adjust....just like non DS patients do in the normal course of life.
I really am trying hard not to let the fact that I had the DS procedure rule my life anymore than I have too.
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Post by MsVee on Aug 22, 2014 14:01:15 GMT -5
Excellent post Joanne! However I have a very different take on things. I don't think because you did not hit your weight loss goal you are non compliant. I have been very open about my own weight loss struggles. I also do not think the DS is for everyone. It is a powerful tool and it can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
MsVee
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Post by Joanne on Aug 22, 2014 14:33:24 GMT -5
Excellent post Joanne! However I have a very different take on things. I don't think because you did not hit your weight loss goal you are non compliant. I have been very open about my own weight loss struggles. I also do not think the DS is for everyone. It is a powerful tool and it can be dangerous in the wrong hands. MsVee Hi there MsVee, I know you in person, so I know you've shared your struggles. IMHO, you're a good example of how some people's bodies just work differently. You can do everything right, and still struggle to get to your goal To quote my surgeon (again) he once told me that something in our bodies makes us get morbidly obese to begin with. Surgery may or may not help whatever that trigger is. Why does one person maybe get to 225 pounds and another to 800? Is it all food (doubtful), is it metabolism? Is it food intake but it's just triggered by something else? It's very complex. But you are an example of someone whose body just wants to hang on despite what you do. I dont think you're noncompliant one bit.
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DSwitcher
Junior Member
Posts: 88
Surgery Type: Revision
Surgery Date: 08/26/2014
Surgeon: BOYCE
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Post by DSwitcher on Aug 22, 2014 15:50:37 GMT -5
I was surprised to learn that some of the Bacon Butter Braggers either had not reached their desired weight or had some regain. I am still not clear about the Fat issue, when you should watch it and when you can start eating full fat,i f ever, but it is not the "I eat it all" mentality that I at first thought it was... {:>} When it comes to DS weight regain, fat is never the problem. It is always the carbs. That's good.... Can you say when I should watch fat intake and when I can start eating full fat, and still continue losing at the same rate?" Read more: weightlosssurgery.proboards.com/thread/9324/get-ds?page=1&scrollTo=133839#ixzz3B9jlBWuz
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 18:04:51 GMT -5
You should eat full fat ALWAYS. NOW.
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Post by newyorkbitch on Aug 22, 2014 18:16:17 GMT -5
You MALABSORB fats.
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Post by illinids2 on Aug 22, 2014 19:06:47 GMT -5
Eat more fat when you feel your system can handle it....you will know if you can't ...not sure how far out you are but early on too much fat isn't tolerated well by some. Greasy and or acidic foods were too harsh for me for a month or so but the fat sensitivity went away.
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Post by goodkel on Aug 22, 2014 22:36:48 GMT -5
You can eat as much fat as you like as soon as your body can handle it. I'm sure you've noticed how most people have issues with loose stools and fecal urgency as new post-ops. Since we malabsorb 80% of the fat we ingest, fat can add to that discomfort. As you heal and can eat more solid foods and take all your vitamins, things tend to calm down and fat becomes better tolerated. I get constipated if I don't eat enough fat. At NO point should you eat anything labeled low fat, light, lite, 1%, 2% or skim milk. When they remove fat, they add sugar to make the product more palatable. Fat is the only food that I have found a peer reviewed study on proving the amount of malabsorbtion. It is 80%, making everything you eat naturally low fat. Fat and protein ( a strong estimate of at least 50% malabsorbtion) are the only two foods that you never have to worry about eating too much. Not enough protein can destroy your health and your weight loss. Your body needs fat. Without it, it will try to hold on to what it has interfering with your weight loss. What you need to watch, count, and restrict are carbs. With the exception of fiber, which the human body does not digest, all carbs become sugar during the digestion process.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 22:38:06 GMT -5
The DS does not rule my life. The only parts of it that it affects are my bathroom habits and how much protein I eat. Everything else is adjustable and/or flexible (Vitamins, I know are not negotiable, but they are adjustable, and flexible) (*to an extent,of course). This surgery does NOT prevent me from doing anything, does not prevent me from being strong and heathly. It does not change ME.
The surgery, if anything, has made me is more empathetic and sympathetic for others in similar or worse condition that I was before.
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Post by fatmackn on Aug 24, 2014 13:03:46 GMT -5
Good thread OP, this is exactly why the new and improved SADI-S procedure was invented, to mitigate the bathroom horror stories and the nutritional deficiencies (for the people who don't want to spend a fortune on lifetime supps/infusions etc)
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Post by illinids2 on Aug 24, 2014 13:44:12 GMT -5
Good thread OP, this is exactly why the new and improved SADI-S procedure was invented, to mitigate the bathroom horror stories and the nutritional deficiencies (for the people who don't want to spend a fortune on lifetime supps/infusions etc) Bathroom issues, not sure what you are talking about. I don't have them. What I do know that I no longer have diabetes and I have lost 180 pounds. Supplements are no big deal either. Not sure t g e Sadi-s that you speak of would do that...can you please post some peer reviewed articles presenting the facts of this surgery you are advocating?
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