carb counting - net carbs or total carbs?

[rklc2002]

I am 2 years DS post-op and I really want to lose my final 20 pounds. I see posts talking about 50 grams carbs, but that seems to be referring to net carbs and not true carb counts. If I am just tracking normal carbs, what would the max amount that I should shoot for in a day? I understand that I should keep it to a minimum. I can't find any place that talks about a rule of thumb on how to eat after DS. I would like to refresh myself after 2 years post op.

[maggiesara]

FWIW, I do think that net carbs are "true carb counts," provided you're arriving at the net by substracting only fiber, and not the various bogus ingredients, like sugar alcohols, that many manufacturers subtract. Fiber genuinely does not get digested, and by focusing on fiber, you will tend to get the bulk of your carbs from vegetables and legumes, which are much healthier sources than, say, grains and sugars, which are largely devoid of fiber.

[Deleted]

And "I" consider net carbs voodoo math! However I base that on the 10 plus years of carb counting for insulin. Every carb counted for insulin regardless of it being fiber, sugar alcohols or just carbs! I had to give myself insulin based on all carbs that I put in my mouth.

I try to stay around 75 but if I stay under 100, I'm doing good.

Liz

[rklc2002]

Dec 30, 2013 0:37:08 GMT -5 @southernlady said:

And "I" consider net carbs voodoo math! However I base that on the 10 plus years of carb counting for insulin. Every carb counted for insulin regardless of it being fiber, sugar alcohols or just carbs! I had to give myself insulin based on all carbs that I put in my mouth.

I try to stay around 75 but if I stay under 100, I'm doing good.

Liz

Thank you. I wanted to get an idea of what counts I should target, whether it's 'net carbs' or total carbs. I would rather track it as total carbs as it's more straight forward. When I hear people staying under 50 grams of carbs a day, that scared the hell out of me. That doesn't seem possible. I was thinking/hoping that is 'net carbs'.

[maggiesara]

Liz, I think it's a matter of what your endo follows: I was also diabetic, and my endo had me subtracting fiber to arrive at my carbs/insulin ratio. I understand that you count total carbs, and that's perfectly valid, but I don't see how subtracting fiber amounts to "voodoo math."

[rklc2002]

not really "voodoo math", but I understand what she means. It's just easier to calculate straight carbs off of the labels on on MyFitnessPal (for me anyway...). So, for the 'net carbs', which considers fiber, what amount do you try to stay under?

I think I need a 'refresher' course on what I should be eating so that I can get these final 20 pounds off.

[maggiesara]

Pre-surgery, as a long-time low-carber, I shot for under 40 net grams per day, and typically got it under 35. I have generally been going for under 50, post-surgery, although the past few weeks have been problematic and way too high in carbs.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2013 1:41:52 GMT -5 maggiesara said:

Liz, I think it's a matter of what your endo follows: I was also diabetic, and my endo had me subtracting fiber to arrive at my carbs/insulin ratio. I understand that you count total carbs, and that's perfectly valid, but I don't see how subtracting fiber amounts to "voodoo math."

Actually my endo said subtract but my METER did NOT and so we followed my meter.

So for me, it's voodoo math or hokey pokey math! Bottom line, itis just easier to count all of them. Example, green veggies such as a cup of broccoli was just easier to remember at 6 grams rather than have many different amounts to figure out.

[Joanne]

Dec 30, 2013 0:51:22 GMT -5 rklc2002 said:

Dec 30, 2013 0:37:08 GMT -5 @southernlady said:

And "I" consider net carbs voodoo math! However I base that on the 10 plus years of carb counting for insulin. Every carb counted for insulin regardless of it being fiber, sugar alcohols or just carbs! I had to give myself insulin based on all carbs that I put in my mouth.

I try to stay around 75 but if I stay under 100, I'm doing good.

Liz

Thank you. I wanted to get an idea of what counts I should target, whether it's 'net carbs' or total carbs. I would rather track it as total carbs as it's more straight forward. When I hear people staying under 50 grams of carbs a day, that scared the hell out of me. That doesn't seem possible. I was thinking/hoping that is 'net carbs'.

Do you want to give us an idea of what a typical day eating is for you? That might help.

I eat around 100 total carbs per day and can maintain on that, but when the scale creeps up and I cut them, the pounds drop off. I have no problem, though, cutting total carbs below 50 which is why I thought it might help to see what you're eating.

[Deleted]

I still think there is a too much emphasis on carbs. Sure you don't want to eat a bunch of simple carbs constantly, but it seems to me that the 100-150 range daily is quite a good range. Back in my diabetic days (LOL) when I limited my carbs to 65 per meal, my blood glucose levels were great.

I had the DS for my diabetes to resolve. Check (or so it seems early on). and.....I had it so I could eat what I want (within reason) and stay healthy. I am not going to give up veggies, some starches and the occasional sweet.....life is too short and I am not going do diet.....again, that is one of the main reasons we had the DS..

Regarding your last 20 pounds that you want to lose. Do you exercise regularly? Exercising regularly will allow one to eat more carbs and will convert tissue to muscle. I am just getting to the point where I am ready to start a regular work out routine where I can start building back some muscle mass and get some energy back.

[newyorkbitch]

I was going to say the same thing - if you add regular exercise, I think those pounds will drop off. Also I find that when I have weight creep, eliminating simple carbs does the trick. I continue to eat complex carbs in moderation.

[newyorkbitch]

Also, I'm not sure that the carb count that works for other people is relevant - we are all so different. Rather than counting carbs, try eliminating simple carbs and moderating complex carbs, and then play with those to get the balance that works for you.

And remember, you are only two years out. Your absorption will continue to change, and then change again with more time. It's really a constant trial and error process.

[Deleted]

Dec 30, 2013 11:05:01 GMT -5 newyorkbitch said:

I was going to say the same thing - if you add regular exercise, I think those pounds will drop off. Also I find that when I have weight creep, eliminating simple carbs does the trick. I continue to eat complex carbs in moderation.

That is good to hear. Frankly right now, most sweets don't even taste good. Like cinnamon rolls..a Christmas morning tradition..I had one small one and it honestly tasted crappy. I am sure this will probably change as I get further out (every day I feel like I can eat more and things are tasting better).

Most of the carbs I eat now are from veggies, nuts and legumes....I get a few from starches like rice in a burrito bowl, and a little potatoes but most are from the more complex variety. I don't track but I would guess I end up in the 50-75 range on most days.

[rklc2002]

I just had hernia repair 2 weeks ago, but prior to that, I did do boot camp Monday-Thursday for an hour. (Monday - cardio/weights; Tuesday-cardio/weights with focus on abs; Wednesday - Yoga; Thursday - Kick Boxing). I hope some of my extra 20 pounds was possibly muscle. Overall, I'm very healthy now. But, my jeans aren't fitting like I want, so I really want to get a bit more off. I can't workout again until beginning of February due to my latest surgery. I need to start walking in the meantime.

I am trying to focus more on tracking in MyFitnessPal so that I can truly see how I'm doing on my eating. I wanted to get an idea of how others track carbs. Yesterday was my first day tracking -
Totals 1,666 48 161 13 95 81
Your Daily Goal 1,200 90 120 14 40 100
Remaining -466 42 -41 1 -55 19
Calories Protein Carbs Fiber Fat Iron



What are some good sites for understanding low carb? For example, some use heavy cream instead of milk for lower carb. I'd love to read up more on that type of eating.

[Deleted]

RKLC what are you eating? Calories don't matter, but if you are 2 years out and only getting 48 grams of protein a day and 161 grams of carbs, that is not good. You need to be getting a minimum of 100 grams of protein in.

Regarding calories, many of the vets eat 3,500 calories plus a day but the carbs are pretty much after they have in over 30 grams of carbs per meal. Have you read the article on DS Math by Diana?

[brooklyngirl]

I seriously hope I'm misunderstanding your post and this doesn't mean you had only 46 grams of protein but 161 carbs, it should be more like the opposite

[rklc2002]

Unfortunately, that was correct. But, I normally get more protein than that by doing a protein shake (30 gr) and more meat. I think if I start tracking more and focus on what you have all suggested - 100 protein and less carbs, this would help me. Right now, I'm maintaining but I want to lose. I will refresh myself on the DS math article as I think it's a good time to get myself in check again. I am being good about my vitamins and supplements though.

I am on vacation from work and I know that I haven't been doing good at my meal planning. When I work, I am good about planning/bringing my breakfast, snacks, and lunch.
Breakfast=Quick oatmeal with protein powder + powdered milk - but I'm switching to steel cut oats);
Snack= banana + Premier Protein chocolate shake (30 gr protein)
lunch=grilled chicken breast with a bit of ranch dressing + slice of swiss cheese
Snack= Yoplait Whips.

I tried to like Greek Yogurt, but I just can't do it.
Thanks for helping me reset myself!!!!

[Joanne]

Tell us what food made up those counts, and we can tell you how to tweak it, or add protein to it.

You have a much bigger problem than too many carbs, though. You aren't getting in nearly enough protein. You can't have any excuses, it's the stuff you need to stay healthy. You will be in a world of trouble soon if you dont turn that around. Those numbers you reported, is that today? Go grab a protein shake...

[brooklyngirl]

Dec 30, 2013 18:49:42 GMT -5 rklc2002 said:

Breakfast=Quick oatmeal with protein powder + powdered milk - but I'm switching to steel cut oats);
Snack= banana + Premier Protein chocolate shake (30 gr protein)
lunch=grilled chicken breast with a bit of ranch dressing + slice of swiss cheese
Snack= Yoplait Whips.

Ok, so off the top of my head, and like Joanne said- not even about the losing more weight, but so you don't get sick- I'd cut the banana and yopait whip and replace them with cheese, nuts, eggs, deli meat, etc. I'd also add 2 more snacks that have good protein. If you love your fruit and sugary/low protein yogurt, eat it, but only after you're getting adequate protein in.

[Happy DSr]

you need to consume more calories in the form of protein and fats and ditch the carbs.

Oatmeal, bananas - these are empty carbs. Eggs and bacon are some of the best breakfast foods
chicken breast - trade for dark meat, with skin, and add lots of full fat dressings
instead of yoplait, try full fat Greek yogurt

consider adding cheeses, fattier meats, whole cream, more meat, eggs, shrimp, seafood....there are so many choices for protein

[rklc2002]

Thanks for the tips. I like the things that I can make up ahead of time and grab N go. I am trying to do more nuts. I wasn't a big fan, but I do like the almonds with the dusting of cocoa powder. I was afraid I was over doing it on them. I need to eat more Edamame as well. I do like that as a snack.

Even Steel cut oats is bad? I wanted it for the fiber and I do add protein powder to it. I don't like the "twangy" taste of Greek Yogurt. Any suggestions on which ones don't have as much as of the twangy taste? I've tried a variety of them so far. I can definitely make up some eggs & Bacon into muffin tins for quick grab N go breakfasts.

Thanks for all of the advice!! I am feeling fantastic, but I don't want to take that for granted!! Time to refocus myself!!!

[Joanne]

The only Greek yogurt I like is Fage. I put it in a bowl, add a splash of Half and Half and some sf vanilla syrup. Then I throw in a few frozen berries and mix it all up.

You're definitely not eating enough protein. If you get in more protein, those carbs will by default fall out because you'll be more satisfied, and not have any room. As others said, eggs and bacon can be mainstays. FWIW I do eat steel cut oatmeal almost every day, but I'm at my goal and maintaining. If I wanted to lose, I wouldn't eat it. And no way would I ever eat the banana. I dont think I've eaten one banana in almost 5 years.

Here's an example, what I ate today:

B - Steel cut oatmeal with cream, cinnamon, and sf vanilla
B2 - Fage yogurt, cream, blueberries
L - 1 slice of bread, spread with mayo, topped with turkey and swiss cheese
S - cubes of swiss cheese
D - Hibachi filet, few veggies (no rice)


Focus first on your protein. You had protein powder twice today, you can get in your protein with actual, satisfying food if you change it up.

Here are some ideas:

Breakfast:

I would ditch the oatmeal, all of it, and eat protein for breakfast. Eggs, bacon, cheese. Think beyond breakfast if you get sick of eggs. Sometimes i eat ham and cheese fried in a pan. No banana at all, it's empty carbs.

Lunch - deli meat, leftover dinner, rotisserie chicken, tuna and mayo, chef's salad, chicken ceasar salad, burger with no bun

Snacks - Greek yogurt (no Yoplait), nuts, cheese, microwaved pepperoni chips, deli meat wrapped around pickles

Dinner - Whatever protein based things you like. Steak, chicken, seafood - just eat the protein, a little of the veggies, and no starch

[Deleted]

FYI here is what I ate today:

Breakfast -
3 sunny side up eggs (21 g Protein), 10 slices of bacon (20 grams of protein)and a tiny little square of PB&J toast (first time since surgery on 9/23)....it was about 1.5 in squared.

Snack-
EAS Lean 15 protein bar - 15 grams P and 23 carbs

Lunch-
Mexican- Chicken enchiladas with cheese, sour cream, guacamole and refitos...I didn't eat the the enchilada tortilla and had an oz or so of meat (The chicken was to dry)......this was not a great lunch because to get 15-20 grams of protein I had probably 30 grams of protein (beans, and some corn tortilla chips)
Snack:
1 small back of Planters Cashews (8 grams Protein)

Dinner:
Japanese Steak House
Bowl of Miso soup
1/4 of salad with Ginger dressing
8 Scallops
1/2 of veggies(mushrooms, zuchinni, carrots, snap peas, onions)
1/4 of cup fried rice (eggs, chicken and scallops in rice)
and I used a good amount of the sauce (the creamy one and mixed in the ginger sauce.

and almonds, cashews, sun flower seeds are great protein snacks

I had too many carbs today, but got in a good amount of protein

[rklc2002]

Dec 30, 2013 21:13:18 GMT -5 Joanne said:

The only Greek yogurt I like is Fage. I put it in a bowl, add a splash of Half and Half and some sf vanilla syrup. Then I throw in a few frozen berries and mix it all up.

You're definitely not eating enough protein. If you get in more protein, those carbs will by default fall out because you'll be more satisfied, and not have any room. As others said, eggs and bacon can be mainstays. FWIW I do eat steel cut oatmeal almost every day, but I'm at my goal and maintaining. If I wanted to lose, I wouldn't eat it. And no way would I ever eat the banana. I dont think I've eaten one banana in almost 5 years.

Here's an example, what I ate today:

B - Steel cut oatmeal with cream, cinnamon, and sf vanilla
B2 - Fage yogurt, cream, blueberries
L - 1 slice of bread, spread with mayo, topped with turkey and swiss cheese
S - cubes of swiss cheese
D - Hibachi filet, few veggies (no rice)


Focus first on your protein. You had protein powder twice today, you can get in your protein with actual, satisfying food if you change it up.

Here are some ideas:

Breakfast:

I would ditch the oatmeal, all of it, and eat protein for breakfast. Eggs, bacon, cheese. Think beyond breakfast if you get sick of eggs. Sometimes i eat ham and cheese fried in a pan. No banana at all, it's empty carbs.

Lunch - deli meat, leftover dinner, rotisserie chicken, tuna and mayo, chef's salad, chicken ceasar salad, burger with no bun

Snacks - Greek yogurt (no Yoplait), nuts, cheese, microwaved pepperoni chips, deli meat wrapped around pickles

Dinner - Whatever protein based things you like. Steak, chicken, seafood - just eat the protein, a little of the veggies, and no starch

Thanks for the tips! I forgot about pepperoni chips!! Great idea. That would be a great snack. I can probably do the same with canadian bacon.
And, I'll try Fage and doctor it up with cream and SF syrup.

[kennyk]

BKLYN! You go girl with that great advice!
Joanne, pepperoni chips? intrigued here. What is this?
Also I would hope someone would read your tag line (or have had the pleasure of meeting you for dinner!) and knw that you are so in maintain mode and thin. Oat meal, bread etc is great if you have nothing to be loosing.

Scott, man plans, god laughs. That is crossing my mind since started reading this post in the bowl at almost 5 am.
I had a crappy carb day, bad choices, pity pot blah blah blah. My weight is good, so I will be a little gassy etc.
My toilet tells me not to be an asshole.
This is true for ME Scott. If I think I am doing 50-75 carbs I am way over 100 prob. Closer to 150.
Myfitnesspal and being really honest tracking is the only way I know that.

RKLC
I hoped I misread your post also and would love you to post more days from your tracking.
You can do protein powders apparently. Please Do More! These are danger level proteins you tracked here.
A few thoughts I would make a serious attempt to get rid of carbs for a bit and bang in some proteins.
Greek yogurt? Acquired taste for sure but DS food of the gods! There is always room for it.
I use full fat or 2% for slight better protein (I try not to use anything but the plain due to the extra carbs) . I add half as much full fat cottage cheese to it. At least a few Splenda or sweetners of choice. A couple tbs of hemp seeds. And maybe 2 tbs of applesauce usually homemade.

With all that crap in it? High protein, tasty way covers all twangy flavors!
Lots of bacon, handfuls of nuts. Peanut butter off the spoon.
And my new favorite yum snack? Fried cheese that browns up not to be confused with all the delicious cheese that I melt on everything.
Good luck with it, please get your proteins up. Carbs and weight? It is more than ok to choose not to be thin and still healthy.
Low proteins? Anemia? Loss of muscle mass? General malnutrition? NOT OK, NOT A PERSONAL CHOICE. Just something you can die from at under 50 grams protein a day.

Sounds like drama but I god honest believe it.
Kenny

[Joanne]

Kenny -
Pepperoni chips are simple. Just put some sliced pepperoni on a plate and microwave them for 20 seconds or so. They come out crispy. I do that and save them in a Ziploc bag.

I always liked the well done pepperoni on top of a pizza. They're kind of like that.

Also, you can do the same thing with little piles of cheese. Just put some shredded parm in little round circles and nuke or bake them. It makes little cheese crisps, too. Be careful you don't over cook them or they get bitter.

You can bake them as well

www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/george-stella/crispy-pepperoni-chips-recipe/index.html

[maggiesara]

RKLC2002, no, I don't think you can make "chips" with Canadian bacon. Yes, like pepperoni it's a pork product, but it's specifically a VERY lean pork product, whereas pepperoni is very fatty. With Canadian bacon, there really isn't anything to crisp up, and you'll wind up with a very dry, not-terribly-pleasant, fibrous wafer of burned protein. I wouldn't recommend.

Can I ask why you are keeping such a tight lid on both fat and calories? I understand that you want to lose some more weight, but the DS is structured to malabsorb fat. If you ate more fat, you would -- how to put this delicately -- probably poop a bit more, enjoy your food more, and probably find it more satisfying.

Folks here have already suggested that you think about cutting your current carb-levels by about two-thirds. You would replace that food with protein and fat.

If you need a day's food you can take to work, you might want to think about getting a small cooler; it would give you a lot more options, particularly for protein. Throw a chicken or a pork roast into a slow cooker and "pull" it. Put some in a container, mixed with whatever condiments you like -- BBQ sauce? mayo? salad dressing? -- and you can snack on that all day. Roast up a pan full of chicken wings, and put a few in a Baggie. Boil up a few pounds of shrimp, if your budget can take it, and put them in your cooler with whatever you like to dip them in (cocktail sauce, mustard/mayo). Make roll-ups with deli meat, cheese, and bacon in a leaf of boston lettuce, and dip them in a container of dressing. And of course that's on top of obvious grab-and-go's like tuna or chicken salad, HB eggs, string cheese.

[brooklyngirl]

Well said Maggie. It's really not hard or weird to bring a lunch sized cooler bag to work, 90% of the people I've worked with do that, both men AND women.

[rklc2002]

This is all great advice. I am really trying to get on the Greek Yogurt bandwagon. I added SF Jello to it to see if that will get me past the 'twang'.

I am definitely focusing completely on protein first now. (so far - 2 days now...). The day that I logged was really a screwed up day that was terribly low on protein. But, I do need to increase it a lot.

Yesterday - 106 protein; 66 carbs; and 69 fat. So, I'm getting on the right track now!!!

Some great snack ideas listed here for protein snacks, so I really appreciate that.

[brooklyngirl]

Rklc- I just remembered some advice a friend shared with me pre op about Greek yogurt since I was trying not to add sugar from fruit and whatnot to it. She adds crystal light to it, either powder or drops, and she also recommended sugar free hot chocolate mix. Both were much better than plain and much fewer carbs than the fruity sweetened ones. I wish I could eat it everyday because I love yogurt, but it doesn't love me back!